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Jeff

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Well...as many of you know I own three terrible houses in Cape Coral Florida.  Through a series of misjudgments and being taken advantage of (and lied to), I am losing ~$1000 on month on each of these houses when they are rented.  I am just sick about them and often cannot sleep--like now.

Anyway, what should I do?

I have been hitting my personal residence HELOC for the negatives, but can only take that so far.  I would just like to "walk away" from these homes but of course I am too embarrassed to do that (so far) and I suspect it is not an option anyway...

What are my options?  These houses appraised at ~315k (closed in last year) but might only sell for 230k right now.  I owe 264k.

I have done some preliminary research and it seems like one option goes like this:

1.  Put the house on the market
2.  After a certain amount of time on the market (60 days? 90 days?) the bank will entertain short sale offers
3.  After a much longer time, the bank will consider deed in lieu.

I go round and round with what to do on these properties...at first I say hold until the market returns and keep borrowing on my HELOC, then I say no way that is too expensive, sell.  But when I think about selling I think about the ~45k loss for each house!  I will have to make payments on that ~135k loss for 30 years!  So I think about "walking away," but then I think about the credit score hit I will take and how many years that will follow me--so I go back to the hold until the market turns solution.  Around and around...I am dizzy thinking of it.

A short sale option seems a good compromise.  The problem is I don't know how to do it.  If I understand correctly, I am the one that needs to come up with a
buyer and offer.  How do I do that?  In the meantime do I keep my loan current?  Do I shop for a Realtor in the area that specializes in short sales?  Do I contact investors in the area?

Can anyone tell me if the short sale is my best solution?  Can anyone walk me through the short sale process?

Please help me!  What should I do!?

Additional questions:
1.  Should I keep the loans current no matter what to avoid hurting my credit more than I have to?
2.  How will a short sale impact my credit?
3.  Should I not pay my loans to give me more "leverage" with the lender?
4.  Maybe I should "tough it out" and keep these houses until the market returns (I always keep coming back to this one...)?
5.  Will someone even consider a short sale if they could buy another house without the hassle?  Does that mean a short sale will be considerably less than market?

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Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #2 
Jeff,

IIRC, you bought a whole bunch of houses all over the place, and seemed to be doing very well. Aren't the cash-flow positive houses from other areas holding you up?

If you've discussed this in another thread, please point me there so I can catch up. I think all I remember comes from the long flipper in trouble thread.

rickencin

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I'm very sorry to hear that you are in this mess.

Since this is Florida, you need to know the answer to a couple questions:

Is this a judicial or non-judicial foreclosure state?

Is a purchase money mortgage entitled to waive any deficiency judgment?  (Is this a purchase money mortgage?) (You can always ask a lender for a written statement to waive deficiency judgment as part of the short sale agreement.)

You would think a couple minutes on Google would answer these, but I didn't have any luck getting a definitive answer.

The next problem you have is that you get a 1099 income statement for any deficiency and have to pay tax on it.  I guess the theory is that borrowing money and not paying it back is like income.

A quick calculation shows that $135,000 should be costing you about $900 a month.  This is far less than $1,000 per month per property.

IF this is a non-judicial foreclosure state and IF a purchase money mortgage (assuming you have one) can't enforce a deficiency judgment, then just let the properties go through foreclosure. 

Yes, this will hurt your credit.  Yes, you will get a 1099 for the deficiency from the IRS.  At least the $3,000/month will stop eating you alive. 

It's a bummer that being a deadbeat and not paying debts is a better strategy than killing yourself to make payments, but sometimes it happens that way.

I think you need to be very clear where you stand.  Maybe some others can help you with Florida Law.

Again, I'm very sorry this is happening to you.




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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #4 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subcranium
Jeff,

IIRC, you bought a whole bunch of houses all over the place, and seemed to be doing very well. Aren't the cash-flow positive houses from other areas holding you up?

If you've discussed this in another thread, please point me there so I can catch up. I think all I remember comes from the long flipper in trouble thread.

Yes, I had some successes... http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/sdcia/vpost?id=444014&highlight=favorite

For example, I have two houses in SLC that have gone up ~100k between the two of them.  So I will probably not be going to debtors prison...(I hate to sell them now though, just when the market is going gangbusters.  SLC may be the only market in the country appreciating at >20% right now...)

But these Florida losses are threatening entirely to wipe out all of my gains in other areas.  I need to know the best way to get away from them!

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chatterweb

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Reply with quote  #5 
Aside from dumping the 3 properties, is there a way to generate the 3K per month
from working another job? Even if you could generate $1500.00 (half) that would help alot.
A coworker who owned 3 SD condos
held 2 additional jobs to stay above water.
She became a loan officer and she works
at a retail clothing store, as well as working 40 hours a week.
2 ideas of mine:
Ebay power seller
Mystery Shopper
I also know of a company that is always hiring in SD, and the pay/benefits are very very good.
I myself would try to generate extra income and live frugally.

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Jeff

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin

I'm very sorry to hear that you are in this mess.

Thanks...that is nice for you to say...I was worried people would beat me up about these homes.  I know they were a mistake--what I need to know now is what to do about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin


Since this is Florida, you need to know the answer to a couple questions:

Is this a judicial or non-judicial foreclosure state?


Can any one out there help with this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin


Is a purchase money mortgage entitled to waive any deficiency judgment?  (Is this a purchase money mortgage?) (You can always ask a lender for a written statement to waive deficiency judgment as part of the short sale agreement.)

You would think a couple minutes on Google would answer these, but I didn't have any luck getting a definitive answer.



It was a construction loan that I had to modify or "re-fi" to a perm loan.  Does that make it a purchase loan?  Or a refinance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin


The next problem you have is that you get a 1099 income statement for any deficiency and have to pay tax on it.  I guess the theory is that borrowing money and not paying it back is like income.


I would rather pay tax on the 135k than pay the 135k out of pocket and then get a capital loss deduction...wouldn't I?  Do I misunderstand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin

A quick calculation shows that $135,000 should be costing you about $900 a month.  This is far less than $1,000 per month per property.


Yes, but that $900 a month is forever (or at least 30 years?).  And the 3k a month is only for a couple (?) years...or at least that is what is holding me back.  Like I said, I keep going around in circles on this until I am dizzy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin


IF this is a non-judicial foreclosure state and IF a purchase money mortgage (assuming you have one) can't enforce a deficiency judgment, then just let the properties go through foreclosure. 

Foreclosure?  Really?  Not even try for a short sale of deed in Lieu?

If that is the case, should I even go through the trouble (and expense, ~5k) of modifying this last loan to perm?

What are the impacts of foreclosure?  For a normal person and for an investor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin


Yes, this will hurt your credit.  Yes, you will get a 1099 for the deficiency from the IRS.  At least the $3,000/month will stop eating you alive. 

It's a bummer that being a deadbeat and not paying debts is a better strategy than killing yourself to make payments, but sometimes it happens that way.



"Deadbeat."  Exactly--that has been what has kept me form even considering this option for so long.  I want to "pay my bills" like a good citizen.  Of course, I could justify the decision by saying that I agreed to pay or give up the house...and that is all that I am doing, giving up the house.  The bank did give me an appraisal for 315k for goodness sakes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickencin

I think you need to be very clear where you stand.  Maybe some others can help you with Florida Law.

Again, I'm very sorry this is happening to you.



Thanks again...

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Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
What are my options?  These houses appraised at ~315k (closed in last year) but might only sell for 230k right now.  I owe 264k.


I think the Florida train wreck is going to continue for a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised to see the values come down further. So whatever you do, do it as quickly as you can. Don't let your fear of taking a loss make the loss worse. Ask yourself if you'd buy those Florida properties today at the price you think you could sell them for.

Glad you're doing so well in Salt Lake City. I'd consider selling one of those, paying off the HELOC on your own house, and selling one or two of the Florida properties. Just ratchet it all down to weather the storm. Reason? I think SLC will eventually slide a bit. You may have all your eggs in there now (or at least all your best eggs), and may be relying on that success too much.  Even the cities that haven't been hit--Portland, Seattle, Eugene, Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro--will probably come down a bit if there's an enduring nationwide glut.

But I'm not you. Look into all choices and do what makes sense to you. Good luck. Make sure you sleep at night. It's only money and it isn't worth tying you up in knots. Look at how many people have been rich & bust & rich again. Naughty sex and quality sleep are the cure to almost every ailment.
simonw

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Reply with quote  #8 
One solution from the Jack Miller Camp.

Sell way below market to get the sale, and take an option
to buy it back at a later date.

Simon

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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #9 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterweb
Aside from dumping the 3 properties, is there a way to generate the 3K per month
from working another job? Even if you could generate $1500.00 (half) that would help alot.
A coworker who owned 3 SD condos
held 2 additional jobs to stay above water.
She became a loan officer and she works
at a retail clothing store, as well as working 40 hours a week.
2 ideas of mine:
Ebay power seller
Mystery Shopper
I also know of a company that is always hiring in SD, and the pay/benefits are very very good.
I myself would try to generate extra income and live frugally.

I totally see what you are saying here...

A brave and conscientious borrower/investor would do whatever it takes to keep these loans current and their credit safe.  I have had this attitude for over a year now, and kept it even in the face of serious lies and being taken advantage of...and it is killing me financially.

However, what would a smart borrower/investor do?  Economically, what is the best "out"?  Maybe you are right and holding these houses is best, but I am considering my options...

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Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #10 
I just searched Google for "judicial foreclosure florida". Do that and you'll see some great resources. And the answer is right there in the search results.

http://stopforeclosure.com/Florida_Foreclosure_Law.htm

Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #11 
>>Thanks...that is nice for you to say...I was worried people would beat me up about these homes.

I must admit I was tempted to say "I told you so." But only tempted. You were pretty cocky 9 months ago. :-)

But I'm a family man, so I know that everyone's just trying to get through doing the best for those that depend on him or her.
Jeff

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subcranium

I must admit I was tempted to say "I told you so." But only tempted. You were pretty cocky 9 months ago. :-)


You showed great restraint...I am not so cocky now!


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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subcranium
I just searched Google for "judicial foreclosure florida". Do that and you'll see some great resources. And the answer is right there in the search results.

http://stopforeclosure.com/Florida_Foreclosure_Law.htm

Quick Facts
-  Judicial Foreclosure Available: Yes
-  Non-Judicial Foreclosure Available: No
-  Primary Security Instruments: Mortgage
-  Timeline: Typically 180 days
-  Right of Redemption: Yes
-  Deficiency Judgments Allowed: Yes
In Florida, lenders may foreclose on a mortgage in default by using the judicial foreclosure process.

Judicial Foreclosure
In Florida, all mortgages are foreclosed in equity. In a mortgage foreclosure action, the court severs, for separate trial, all counterclaims against the foreclosing lender. The foreclosure claim shall, if tried, be tried to the court without a jury.

The court order of foreclosure will specify how the foreclosure must take place, and the foreclosure must take place on those terms. Whenever a legal advertisement, publication, or notice relating to a foreclosure proceeding is required to be placed in a newspaper, it is the responsibility of the lender or their representative to place such advertisement, publication, or notice.
Equitable Right of Redemption ends at the foreclosure sale (or at another time specified by the courts, but this rarely happens). There is a period of time after the sale that "the court reviews the sale to ensure a fair price has been paid."  Basically, this period of time allows parties to object to the sale on the basis that proper procedures were not followed or collusion existed between the bidders, for example.  This period is usually 10 days, after which the Certificate of Sale is filed and title passes, if the sale is confirmed.  If the sale is not confirmed, another sale is ordered.  (Reference F.S. Chapter 702)

The lender may sue to obtain a deficiency judgment in Florida.

 
Maybe its that I didn't get any sleep last night..or maybe I am just dim, but hardly any of these word seem to make sense to me right now.  Can anyone explain?  How will a foreclosure impact me?  Will the lender come after me personally on a foreclosure?  Or do they just get the house? 

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Erik

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Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff

For example, I have two houses in SLC that have gone up ~100k between the two of them.  ...(I hate to sell them now though, just when the market is going gangbusters.  SLC may be the only market in the country appreciating at >20% right now...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff - That's when you want to sell. Don't take this the wrong way, but haven't you learned that lesson in Florida?

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Suzanne

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Reply with quote  #15 
Jeff, I think "cockiness" has many definitions in relationship to Real Estate:  Pure confidence, Desire for a more financially secure life, and Love of a challenge to name a few.  It's a good thing to have!  You went for it and I know have everyone's respect. 

What would you think about eliminating stress and saving your credit by liquidating some of your other properties - breaking even so to speak - and then starting over? 

Suzanne
BayPark

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Reply with quote  #16 
Jeff -

If you try to maximize the gain or minimize the loss on each individual property you may be doing yourself a disservice.  I would consider the whole portfolio.  If these were stocks, wouldn't you harvest some capital gains to avoid taxes because of the capital losses on others.  I'd consider selling FL at a loss and covering some of that loss with gains in other states.  Just make sure you do it in the same tax year.

This has the following positive effects:
1.  Reduces the impact of the losses
2.  You get to pay zero taxes on capital gains for the properties that have gains.
3.  It reduces your leverage to provide short-term safety while housing retreats in many markets
4.  It keeps your credit clean for another shot at this over the next 3 years. 



BayPark

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Reply with quote  #17 
- Deficiency Judgments Allowed: Yes


This means they can go after your other assets. But just because it's allowed does not mean that there aren't restrictions. That said, I would consider the prudent investors' way out I described above.
Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #18 
>>Jeff, I think "cockiness" has many definitions in relationship to Real Estate:  Pure confidence, Desire for a more financially secure life, and Love of a challenge to name a few.

Those don't sound like definitions of cockiness to me. I have a definition for cockiness: Inability to foresee and plan for possible challenges due to overconfidence.
cal

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Reply with quote  #19 
For the past 6-7 years everyone has been trying to scam everyone to get rich......The Loan officers, Real estate agents, Banks and the Federal reserve....I say screw them.....You have a number of good properties....Rid yourself of the ones that are causing you stress.....Do you need good credit now? What I'm saying is; if you already have all the investment homes you want....You really don't need good credit.....You will be surprised how you will feel when you dump the ones that are causing you sleepless nights. One thing I like about you Jeff is that you are honest....The one thing I've learned is we all make mistakes.....It is part of the game...But getting out early is the best solution.......You only have to be right 50% of the time as long as you realize your mistakes and purge yourself from those problems A.S.A.P.....
Good luck and keep us posted.........I want to know what you did right and what you did wrong....It benefits all of us. 

 

Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #20 
>>It keeps your credit clean for another shot at this over the next 3 years.

And I agree that's the goal. You want your powder dry for the bottom. If you get to that point, you'll achieve success that few top-buyers achieve.
DCnative

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Reply with quote  #21 
With regards to the 1099, it is possible you might not get one at all.  Read this post over at housing bubble casualty blog.  I don't know whether or not this is a rare occurrence or could be applied to your situation.  Might be worthwhile to contact this individual to speak directly about their experience.

http://housingbubblecasualty.com/update-an-fb-situation-14-months-later/

Alternately, you could check with Casey Serin--he's styling himself as a foreclosure guru (you know, cause he has been so successful at it himself!).
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Reply with quote  #22 

Subcranium, stay positive! Suz

Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzanne

Subcranium, stay positive! Suz


I'm an eternal optimist. I'm always positive. Jeff will learn his lessons, and his experience will help others who care to read about his difficulties. I'm not intending to hammer him down. But I do want to help him because I have a lot of respect for his guts and hard work. Problem: I think he believes his SLC properties are magic because he needs them to be magic.

Honest encouragement will help him, but I don't see how bland platitudes will. It's not his self-esteem that needs saved. It's his ability to continue to think rationally and critically. This is very difficult when you're losing sleep. My suggestion is exercise like crazy, have sex like a monkey, and fall asleep and sleep hard. If you wake up, read inspiring things, or learn how to meditate. The middle of the night is _not_ the time to fret.
Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #24 
Perhaps this could help...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/22/BUGU9PB34I1.DTL

RobertCampbell

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Reply with quote  #25 


Jeff,

First, let me say that I've sorry to hear that you're in bad position on three FL properties right now. 

If it's any help, I know the pain, worry, and sleepless nights you're feeling because I've been there ... only worse.

Second, could you please answer one question for me ...

How did you - as a positive cash flow investor - get into the position where three FL properties have a $1,000 per month negative cash flow each?

I know FL hazard insurance has doubled or tripled, but have other holding costs soared as well?

This bad state of affairs you are currently in will pass, Jeff.  Believe me, it will.

Best wishes to you,

Robert Campbell

cal

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Quote:

I'm an eternal optimist. I'm always positive. Jeff will learn his lessons, and his experience will help others who care to read about his difficulties. I'm not intending to hammer him down. But I do want to help him because I have a lot of respect for his guts and hard work. Problem: I think he believes his SLC properties are magic because he needs them to be magic.

Honest encouragement will help him, but I don't see how bland platitudes will. It's not his self-esteem that needs saved. It's his ability to continue to think rationally and critically. This is very difficult when you're losing sleep. My suggestion is exercise like crazy, have sex like a monkey, and fall asleep and sleep hard. If you wake up, read inspiring things, or learn how to meditate. The middle of the night is _not_ the time to fret.


This sounds ridiculous.....Are you serious? The only rational here is getting out from under a rock.......Then you can sleep.....I read inspiring things all the time.....I don't see how that is going to pay the bills.....  
livinineurope

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff

Well...as many of you know I own three terrible houses in Cape Coral Florida. Through a series of misjudgments and being taken advantage of (and lied to), I am losing ~$1000 on month on each of these houses when they are rented. I am just sick about them and often cannot sleep--like now.

Anyway, what should I do?

I have been hitting my personal residence HELOC for the negatives, but can only take that so far. I would just like to "walk away" from these homes but of course I am too embarrassed to do that (so far) and I suspect it is not an option anyway...

What are my options? These houses appraised at ~315k (closed in last year) but might only sell for 230k right now. I owe 264k.

I have done some preliminary research and it seems like one option goes like this:

1. Put the house on the market
2. After a certain amount of time on the market (60 days? 90 days?) the bank will entertain short sale offers
3. After a much longer time, the bank will consider deed in lieu.

I go round and round with what to do on these properties...at first I say hold until the market returns and keep borrowing on my HELOC, then I say no way that is too expensive, sell. But when I think about selling I think about the ~45k loss for each house! I will have to make payments on that ~135k loss for 30 years! So I think about "walking away," but then I think about the credit score hit I will take and how many years that will follow me--so I go back to the hold until the market turns solution. Around and around...I am dizzy thinking of it.

A short sale option seems a good compromise. The problem is I don't know how to do it. If I understand correctly, I am the one that needs to come up with a
buyer and offer. How do I do that? In the meantime do I keep my loan current? Do I shop for a Realtor in the area that specializes in short sales? Do I contact investors in the area?

Can anyone tell me if the short sale is my best solution? Can anyone walk me through the short sale process?

Please help me! What should I do!?

Additional questions:
1. Should I keep the loans current no matter what to avoid hurting my credit more than I have to?
2. How will a short sale impact my credit?
3. Should I not pay my loans to give me more "leverage" with the lender?
4. Maybe I should "tough it out" and keep these houses until the market returns (I always keep coming back to this one...)?
5. Will someone even consider a short sale if they could buy another house without the hassle? Does that mean a short sale will be considerably less than market?



Jeff,

The advice I give you will be more conservative than you may like, but while you are still ahead overall, now would probably be a good time to make major changes and still enjoy success.  I would definately sell some of the homes you are up on and the ones in Fla.  If it's a wash it's still a win-win.  First you get to sleep again! Second, if I remember your portfolio of homes correctly you would still be up and if I recall you would have positive or even cash flow in growing areas.

A friend of mine just bought a SLC home on a short sale, so I wouldn't depend on SLC going gangbusters.  It could, but hey if you made 50-100% consider it an anomaly, take the $ and run.   Or just sell one of them, and another one you own that also went up  enough to cover the Fla losses. 

Outside observer thought -- I've been reading your posts and I am nothing short of amazed about how open you've been with your investments.   I would not have been so brave in a million years, but my hat goes off to you for your bold strategy,  I can't help but to wish you success.

If you can guide me to your link which showed your current holdings I could be more specific.  I have friends in almost every major city you bought so I could get a feel for the no kidding local RE feel.  I f I recall its El PASO, SLC, Boise, Albuquerque?  am I missing any?









Subcranium

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal

Quote:

I'm an eternal optimist. I'm always positive. Jeff will learn his lessons, and his experience will help others who care to read about his difficulties. I'm not intending to hammer him down. But I do want to help him because I have a lot of respect for his guts and hard work. Problem: I think he believes his SLC properties are magic because he needs them to be magic.

Honest encouragement will help him, but I don't see how bland platitudes will. It's not his self-esteem that needs saved. It's his ability to continue to think rationally and critically. This is very difficult when you're losing sleep. My suggestion is exercise like crazy, have sex like a monkey, and fall asleep and sleep hard. If you wake up, read inspiring things, or learn how to meditate. The middle of the night is _not_ the time to fret.


This sounds ridiculous.....Are you serious? The only rational here is getting out from under a rock.......Then you can sleep.....I read inspiring things all the time.....I don't see how that is going to pay the bills.....


Absolutely serious. He could be between his rock & hard place for awhile. Indeed, he's already been there awhile. You can't let your sleep or your health evaporate while you're being challenged. Look at the title of the thread. "Sick." Not to mention the misspelling of "foreclosure." He asks for help in the very first message. He claims lack of sleep when trying to parse his legal situation in Florida.

The difference between the loser and the winner is often their attitude and strength during adversity.
rickencin

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subcranium
I just searched Google for "judicial foreclosure florida". Do that and you'll see some great resources. And the answer is right there in the search results.

http://stopforeclosure.com/Florida_Foreclosure_Law.htm

Quick Facts
-  Judicial Foreclosure Available: Yes
-  Non-Judicial Foreclosure Available: No
-  Primary Security Instruments: Mortgage
-  Timeline: Typically 180 days
-  Right of Redemption: Yes
-  Deficiency Judgments Allowed: Yes
In Florida, lenders may foreclose on a mortgage in default by using the judicial foreclosure process.

It looks like you struck out here.  In non-judicial foreclosure states (trust deed) a purchase money mortgage is often a "non-recourse" (to deficiency judgment) loan.  You are in a judicial foreclosure state and you stated that you did "refi" the property.  You probably have a "recourse" (to deficiency judgment) loan.   At this point it seems very unlikely that you can just walk away by returning the collateral.  You could drag the mortgage agreement out of the closet and scan for the word "recourse" to double check.

Your original idea of a short sale now makes sense, especially if you can get the lender to sign a waiver of deficiency judgment.  Given the fact that you have other assets you could offer to kick in a few thousand (from your HELOC) to get them to agree to this, as a very LAST resort.

Back when I was much younger I changed my mind on the "being a deadbeat" vs "being a good decent citizen" after reading "Looking Out for #1" by Robert Ringer (pages 169 - 174, subtitled "Leprosy in Beverly Hills).  You may be in a position to appreciate his rational analysis:

"It was the worst of all possible worlds.  I had endured prolonged mental anguish, poured out thousands of dollars in hard earned cash, developed an atrocious credit record, and still ended up the object of disdain.  But I was supposed to feel good inside because, regardless of anything else 'I had done the right thing' ". 

Perhaps you can find it at the library.  Used copies go for under a buck on Amazon.com, but you have to pay that pesky shipping fee.

Being a deadbeat actually gives you leverage to put your creditors over a barrel.  Being a decent guy just leaves you beat up.  Robert had the informatory troll thing down, long before the internet, when it came to titling his books.  He also wrote "Winning Through Intimidation".  He was a millionaire commercial real estate broker. 




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Rick
RonaldStarr

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Reply with quote  #30 
Greg Durand "Living in Europe"------------

I also recall Oklahoma City.  OKC is doing fine now, I think.

Good Investing and Good Posting*********Ron Starr**********

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